Slush Pool

An extensive guide for cashing out bitcoin and cryptocurrencies into private banks

Hey guys.
Merry Xmas !
I am coming back to you with a follow up post, as I have helped many people cash out this year and I have streamlined the process. After my original post, I received many requests to be more specific and provide more details. I thought that after the amazing rally we have been attending over the last few months, and the volatility of the last few days, it would be interesting to revisit more extensively.
The attitude of banks around crypto is changing slowly, but it is still a tough stance. For the first partial cash out I operated around a year ago for a client, it took me months to find a bank. They wouldn’t want to even consider the case and we had to knock at each and every door. Despite all my contacts it was very difficult back in the days. This has changed now, and banks have started to open their doors, but there is a process, a set of best practices and codes one has to follow.
I often get requests from crypto guys who are very privacy-oriented, and it takes me months to have them understand that I am bound by Swiss law on banking secrecy, and I am their ally in this onboarding process. It’s funny how I have to convince people that banks are legit, while on the other side, banks ask me to show that crypto millionaires are legit. I have a solid background in both banking and in crypto so I manage to make the bridge, but yeah sometimes it is tough to reconcile the two worlds. I am a crypto enthusiast myself and I can say that after years of work in the banking industry I have grown disillusioned towards banks as well, like many of you. Still an account in a Private bank is convenient and powerful. So let’s get started.
There are two different aspects to your onboarding in a Swiss Private bank, compliance-wise.
*The origin of your crypto wealth
*Your background (residence, citizenship and probity)
These two aspects must be documented in-depth.
How to document your crypto wealth. Each new crypto millionaire has a different story. I may detail a few fun stories later in this post, but at the end of the day, most of crypto rich I have met can be categorized within the following profiles: the miner, the early adopter, the trader, the corporate entity, the black market, the libertarian/OTC buyer. The real question is how you prove your wealth is legit.
1. Context around the original amount/investment Generally speaking, your first crypto purchase may not be documented. But the context around this acquisition can be. I have had many cases where the original amount was bought through Mtgox, and no proof of purchase could be provided, nor could be documented any Mtgox claim. That’s perfectly fine. At some point Mtgox amounted 70% of the bitcoin transactions globally, and people who bought there and managed to withdraw and keep hold of their bitcoins do not have any Mtgox claim. This is absolutely fine. However, if you can show me the record of a wire from your bank to Tisbane (Mtgox's parent company) it's a great way to start.
Otherwise, what I am trying to document here is the following: I need context. If you made your first purchase by saving from summer jobs, show me a payroll. Even if it was USD 2k. If you acquired your first bitcoins from mining, show me the bills of your mining equipment from 2012 or if it was through a pool mine, give me your slushpool account ref for instance. If you were given bitcoin against a service you charged, show me an invoice.
2. Tracking your wealth until today and making sense of it. What I have been doing over the last few months was basically educating compliance officers. Thanks God, the blockchain is a global digital ledger! I have been telling my auditors and compliance officers they have the best tool at their disposal to lead a proper investigation. Whether you like it or not, your wealth can be tracked, from address to address. You may have thought all along this was a bad feature, but I am telling you, if you want to cash out, in the context of Private Banking onboarding, tracking your wealth through the block explorer is a boon. We can see the inflows, outflows. We can see the age behind an address. An early adopter who bought 1000 BTC in 2010, and let his bitcoin behind one address and held thus far is legit, whether or not he has a proof of purchase to show. That’s just common sense. My job is to explain that to the banks in a language they understand.
Let’s have a look at a few examples and how to document the few profiles I mentioned earlier.
The trader. I love traders. These are easy cases. I have a ton of respect for them. Being a trader myself in investment banks for a decade earlier in my career has taught me that controlling one’s emotions and having the discipline to impose oneself some proper risk management system is really really hard. Further, being able to avoid the exchange bankruptcy and hacks throughout crypto history is outstanding. It shows real survival instinct, or just plain blissed ignorance. In any cases traders at exchange are easy cases to corroborate since their whole track record is potentially available. Some traders I have met have automated their trading and have shown me more than 500k trades done over the span of 4 years. Obviously in this kind of scenario I don’t show everything to the bank to avoid information overload, and prefer to do some snacking here and there. My strategy is to show the early trades, the most profitable ones, explain the trading strategy and (partially expose) the situation as of now with id pages of the exchanges and current balance. Many traders have become insensitive to the risk of parking their crypto at exchange as they want to be able to trade or to grasp an occasion any minute, so they generally do not secure a substantial portion on the blockchain which tends to make me very nervous.
The early adopter. Provided that he has not mixed his coin, the early adopter or “hodler” is not a difficult case either. Who cares how you bought your first 10k btc if you bought them below 3$ ? Even if you do not have a purchase proof, I would generally manage to find ways. We just have to corroborate the original 30’000 USD investment in this case. I mainly focus on three things here:
*proof of early adoption I have managed to educate some banks on a few evidences specifically related to crypto markets. For instance with me, an old bitcointalk account can serve as a proof of early adoption. Even an old reddit post from a few years ago where you say how much you despise this Ripple premined scam can prove to be a treasure readily available to show you were early.
*story telling Compliance officers like to know when, why and how. They are human being looking for simple answers to simple questions and they don’t want like to be played fool. Telling the truth, even without a proof can do wonders, and even though bluffing might still work because banks don’t fully understand bitcoin yet, it is a risky strategy that is less and less likely to pay off as they are getting more sophisticated by the day.
*micro transaction from an old address you control This is the killer feature. Send a $20 worth transaction from an old address to my company wallet and to one of my partner bank’s wallet and you are all set ! This is gold and considered a very solid piece of evidence. You can also do a microtransaction to your own wallet, but banks generally prefer transfer to their own wallet. Patience with them please. they are still learning.
*signature message Why do a micro transaction when you can sign a message and avoid potentially tainting your coins ?
*ICO millionaire Some clients made their wealth participating in ETH crowdsale or IOTA ICO. They were very easy to deal with obviously and the account opening was very smooth since we could evidence the GENESIS TxHash flow.
The miner Not so easy to proof the wealth is legit in that case. Most early miners never took screenshot of the blocks on bitcoin core, nor did they note down the block number of each block they mined. Until the the Slashdot article from August 2010 anyone could mine on his laptop, let his computer run overnight and wake up to a freshly minted block containing 50 bitcoins back in the days. Not many people were structured enough to store and secure these coins, avoid malwares while syncing the blockchain continuously, let alone document the mined blocks in the process. What was 50 BTC worth really for the early miners ? dust of dollars, games and magic cards… Even miners post 2010 are generally difficult to deal with in terms of compliance onboarding. Many pool mining are long dead. Deepbit is down for instance and the founders are MIA. So my strategy to proof mining activity is as follow:
*Focusing on IT background whenever possible. An IT background does help a lot to bring some substance to the fact you had the technical ability to operate a mining rig.
*Showing mining equipment receipts. If you mined on your own you must have bought the hardware to do so. For instance mining equipment receipts from butterfly lab from 2012-2013 could help document your case. Similarly, high electricity bill from your household on a consistent basis back in the day could help. I have already unlocked a tricky case in the past with such documents when the bank was doubtful.
*Wallet.dat files with block mining transactions from 2011 thereafter This obviously is a fantastic piece of evidence for both you and me if you have an old wallet and if you control an address that received original mined blocks, (even if the wallet is now empty). I will make sure compliance officers understand what it means, and as for the early adopter, you can prove your control over these wallet through a microtransaction. With these kind of addresses, I can show on the block explorer the mined block rewards hitting at regular time interval, and I can even spot when difficulty level increased or when halvening process happened.
*Poolmining account. Here again I have educated my partner bank to understand that a slush account opened in 2013 or an OnionTip presence was enough to corroborate mining activity. The block explorer then helps me to do the bridge with your current wallet.
*Describing your set up and putting it in context In the history of mining we had CPU, GPU, FPG and ASICs mining. I will describe your technical set up and explain why and how your set up was competitive at that time.
The corporate entity Remember 2012 when we were all convinced bitcoin would take over the world, and soon everyone would pay his coffee in bitcoin? How naïve we were to think transaction fees would remain low forever. I don’t blame bitcoin cash supporters; I once shared this dream as well. Remember when we thought global adoption was right around the corner and some brick and mortar would soon accept bitcoin transaction as a common mean of payment? Well, some shop actually did accept payment and held. I had a few cases as such of shops holders, who made it to the multi million mark holding and had invoices or receipts to proof the transactions. If you are organized enough to keep a record for these trades and are willing to cooperate for the documentation, you are making your life easy. The digital advertising business is also a big market for the bitcoin industry, and affiliates partner compensated in btc are common. It is good to show an invoice, it is better to show a contract. If you do not have a contract (which is common since all advertising deals are about ticking a check box on the website to accept terms and conditions), there are ways around that. If you are in that case, pm me.
The black market Sorry guys, I can’t do much for you officially. Not that I am judging you. I am a libertarian myself. It’s just already very difficult to onboard legit btc adopters, so the black market is a market I cannot afford to consider. My company is regulated so KYC and compliance are key for me if I want to stay in business. Behind each case I push forward I am risking the credibility and reputation I have built over the years. So I am sorry guys I am not risking it to make an extra buck. Your best hope is that crypto will eventually take over the world and you won’t need to cash out anyway. Or go find a Lithuanian bank that is light on compliance and cooperative.
The OTC buyer and the libertarian. Generally a very difficult case. If you bought your stack during your journey in Japan 5 years ago to a guy you never met again; or if you accumulated on and kept no record or lost your account, it is going to be difficult. Not impossible but difficult. We will try to build a case with everything else we have, and I may be able to onboard you. However I am risking a lot here so I need to be 100% confident you are legit, before I defend you. Come & see me in Geneva, and we will talk. I will run forensic services like elliptic, chainalysis, or scorechain on an extract of your wallet. If this scan does not raise too many red flags, then maybe we can work together ! If you mixed your coins all along your crypto history, and shredded your seeds because you were paranoid, or if you made your wealth mining professionally monero over the last 3 years but never opened an account at an exchange. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I am not a magician and don’t get me wrong, I love monero, it’s not the point.
Cashing out ICOs Private companies or foundations who have ran an ICO generally have a very hard time opening a bank account. The few banks that accept such projects would generally look at 4 criteria:
*Seriousness of the project Extensive study of the whitepaper to limit the reputation risk
*AML of the onboarding process ICOs 1.0 have no chance basically if a background check of the investors has not been conducted
*Structure of the moral entity List of signatories, certificate of incumbency, work contract, premises...
*Fiscal conformity Did the company informed the authorities and seek a fiscal ruling.
For the record, I am not into the tax avoidance business, so people come to me with a set up and I see if I can make it work within the legal framework imposed to me.
First, stop thinking Switzerland is a “offshore heaven” Swiss banks have made deals with many governments for the exchange of fiscal information. If you are a French citizen, resident in France and want to open an account in a Private Bank in Switzerland to cash out your bitcoins, you will get slaughtered (>60%). There are ways around that, and I could refer you to good tax specialists for fiscal optimization, but I cannot organize it myself. It would be illegal for me. Swiss private banks makes it easy for you to keep a good your relation with your retail bank and continue paying your bills without headaches. They are integrated to SEPA, provide ebanking and credit cards.
For information, these are the kind of set up some of my clients came up with. It’s all legal; obviously I do not onboard clients that are not tax compliant. Further disclaimer: I did not contribute myself to these set up. Do not ask me to organize it for you. I won’t.
EU tricks
Swiss lump sum taxation Foreign nationals resident in Switzerland can be taxed on a lump-sum basis if they are not gainfully employed in our country. Under the lump-sum tax regime, foreign nationals taking residence in Switzerland may choose to pay an expense-based tax instead of ordinary income and wealth tax. Attractive cantons for the lump sum taxation are Zug, Vaud, Valais, Grisons, Lucerne and Berne. To make it short, you will be paying somewhere between 200 and 400k a year and all expenses will be deductible.
Switzerland has adopted a very friendly attitude towards crypto currency in general. There is a whole crypto valley in Zug now. 30% of ICOs are operated in Switzerland. The reason is that Switzerland has thrived for centuries on banking secrecy, and today with FATCA and exchange of fiscal info with EU, banking secrecy is dead. Regulators in Switzerland have understood that digital ledger technologies were a way to roll over this competitive advantage for the generations to come. Switzerland does not tax capital gains on crypto profits. The Finma has a very pragmatic approach. They have issued guidance- updated guidelines here. They let the business get organized and operate their analysis on a case per case basis. Only after getting a deep understanding of the market will they issue a global fintech license in 2019. This approach is much more realistic than legislations which try to regulate everything beforehand.
Italy new tax exemption. It’s a brand new fiscal exemption. Go to Aoste, get residency and you could be taxed a 100k/year for 10years. Yes, really.
Portugal What’s crazy in Europe is the lack of fiscal harmonization. Even if no one in Brussels dares admit it, every other country is doing fiscal dumping. Portugal is such a country and has proved very friendly fiscally speaking. I personally have a hard time trusting Europe. I have witnessed what happened in Greece over the last few years. Some of our ultra high net worth clients got stuck with capital controls. I mean no way you got out of crypto to have your funds confiscated at the next financial crisis! Anyway. FYI
Malta Generally speaking, if you get a residence somewhere you have to live there for a certain period of time. Being stuck in Italy is no big deal with Schengen Agreement, but in Malta it is a different story. In Malta, the ordinary residence scheme is more attractive than the HNWI residence scheme. Being an individual, you can hold a residence permit under this scheme and pay zero income tax in Malta in a completely legal way.
Monaco Not suitable for French citizens, but for other Ultra High Net worth individual, Monaco is worth considering. You need an account at a local bank as a proof of fortune, and this account generally has to be seeded with at least EUR500k. You also need a proof of residence. I do mean UHNI because if you don’t cash out minimum 30m it’s not interesting. Everything is expensive in Monaco. Real Estate is EUR 50k per square meter. A breakfast at Monte Carlo Bay hotel is 70 EUR. Monaco is sunny but sometimes it feels like a golden jail. Do you really want that for your kids?
  1. Set up a company in Dubaï, get your resident card.
  2. Spend one day every 6 month there
  3. ???
  4. Be tax free
US tricks Some Private banks in Geneva do have the license to manage the assets of US persons and U.S citizens. However, do not think it is a way to avoid paying taxes in the US. Opening an account at an authorized Swiss Private banks is literally the same tax-wise as opening an account at Fidelity or at Bank of America in the US. The only difference is that you will avoid all the horror stories. Horror stories are all real by the way. In Switzerland, if you build a decent case and answer all the questions and corroborate your case in depth, you will manage to convince compliance officers beforehand. When the money eventually hits your account, it is actually available and not frozen.
The IRS and FATCA require to file FBAR if an offshore account is open. However FBAR is a reporting requirement and does not have taxes related to holding an account outside the US. The taxes would be the same if the account was in the US. However penalties for non compliance with FBAR are very large. The tax liability management is actually performed through the management of the assets ( for exemple by maximizing long term capital gains and minimizing short term gains).
The case for Porto Rico. Full disclaimer here. I am not encouraging this. Have not collaborated on such tax avoidance schemes. if you are interested I strongly encourage you to seek a tax advisor and get a legal opinion. I am not responsible for anything written below. I am not going to say much because I am so afraid of uncle Sam that I prefer to humbly pass the hot potato to pwc From here all it takes is a good advisor and some creativity to be tax free on your crypto wealth if you are a US person apparently. Please, please please don’t ask me more. And read the disclaimer again.
Trust tricks Generally speaking I do not accept fringe fiscal situation because it puts me in a difficult situation to the banks I work with, and it is already difficult enough to defend a legit crypto case. Trust might be a way to optimize your fiscal situation. Belize. Bahamas. Seychelles. Panama, You name it. At the end of the day, what matters for Swiss Banks are the beneficial owner and the settlor. Get a legal opinion, get it done, and when you eventually knock at a private bank’s door, don’t say it was for fiscal avoidance you stupid ! You will get the door smashed upon you. Be smarter. It will work. My advice is just to have it done by a great tax specialist lawyer, even if it costs you some money, as the entity itself needs to be structured in a professional way. Remember that with trust you are dispossessing yourself off your wealth. Not something to be taken lightly.
“Anonymous” cash out. Right. I think I am not going into this topic, neither expose the ways to get it done. Pm me for details. I already feel a bit uncomfortable with all the info I have provided. I am just going to mention many people fear that crypto exchange might become reporting entities soon, and rightly so. This might happen anyday. You have been warned. FYI, this only works for non-US and large cash out.
The difference between traders an investors. Danmark, Holland and Germany all make a huge difference if you are a passive investor or if you are a trader. ICO is considered investing for instance and is not taxed, while trading might be considered as income and charged aggressively. I would try my best to protect you and put a focus on your investor profile whenever possible, so you don't have to pay 52% tax if you do not have to :D
Full cash out or partial cash out? People who have been sitting on crypto for long have grown an emotional and irrational link with their coins. They come to me and say, look, I have 50m in crypto but I would like to cash out 500k only. So first let me tell you that as a wealth manager my advice to you is to take some off the table. Doing a partial cash out is absolutely fine. The market is bullish. We are witnessing a redistribution of wealth at a global scale. Bitcoin is the real #occupywallstreet, and every one will discuss crypto at Xmas eve which will make the market even more supportive beginning 2018, especially with all hedge funds entering the scene. If you want to stay exposed to bitcoin and altcoins, and believe these techs will change the world, it’s just natural you want to keep some coins. In the meantime, if you have lived off pizzas over the last years, and have the means to now buy yourself an nice house and have an account at a private bank, then f***ing do it mate ! Buy physical gold with this account, buy real estate, have some cash at hands. Even though US dollar is worthless to your eyes, it’s good and convenient to have some. Also remember your wife deserves it ! And if you have no wife yet and you are socially awkward like the rest of us, then maybe cashing out partially will help your situation ;)
What the Private Banks expect. Joke aside, it is important you understand something. If you come around in Zurich to open a bank account and partially cash out, just don’t expect Private Banks will make an exception for you if you are small. You can’t ask them to facilitate your cash out, buy a 1m apartment with the proceeds of the sale, and not leave anything on your current account. It won’t work. Sadly, under 5m you are considered small in private banking. The bank is ok to let you open an account, provided that your kyc and compliance file are validated, but they will also want you to become a client and leave some money there to invest. This might me despicable, but I am just explaining you their rules. If you want to cash out, you should sell enough to be comfortable and have some left. Also expect the account opening to last at least 3-4 week if everything goes well. You can't just open an account overnight.
The cash out logistics. Cashing out 1m USD a day in bitcoin or more is not so hard.
Let me just tell you this: Even if you get a Tier 4 account with Kraken and ask Alejandro there to raise your limit over $100k per day, Even if you have a bitfinex account and you are willing to expose your wealth there, Even if you have managed to pass all the crazy due diligence at Bitstamp,
The amount should be fractioned to avoid risking your full wealth on exchange and getting slaughtered on the price by trading big quantities. Cashing out involves significant risks at all time. There is a security risk of compromising your keys, a counterparty risk, a fat finger risk. Let it be done by professionals. It is worth every single penny.
Most importantly, there is a major difference between trading on an exchange and trading OTC. Even though it’s not publicly disclosed some exchange like Kraken do have OTC desks. Trading on an exchange for a large amount will weight on the prices. Bitcoin is a thin market. In my opinion over 30% of the coins are lost in translation forever. Selling $10m on an exchange in a day can weight on the prices more than you’d think. And if you trade on a exchange, everything is shown on record, and you might wipe out the prices because on exchanges like bitstamp or kraken ultimately your counterparties are retail investors and the market depth is not huge. It is a bit better on Bitfinex. It is way better to trade OTC. Accessing the institutional OTC market is not easy, and that is also the reason why you should ask a regulated financial intermediary if we are talking about huge amounts.
Last point, always chose EUR as opposed to USD. EU correspondent banks won’t generally block institutional amounts. However we had the cases of USD funds frozen or delayed by weeks.
Most well-known OTC desks are Cumberlandmining (ask for Lucas), Genesis (ask for Martin), Bitcoin Suisse AG (ask for Niklas), circletrade, B2C2, or Altcoinomy (ask for Olivier)
Very very large whales can also set up escrow accounts for massive block trades. This world, where blocks over 30k BTC are exchanged between 2 parties would deserve a reddit thread of its own. Crazyness all around.
Your options: DIY or going through a regulated financial intermediary.
Execution trading is a job in itself. You have to be patient, be careful not to wipe out the order book and place limit orders, monitor the market intraday for spikes or opportunities. At big levels, for a large cash out that may take weeks, these kind of details will save you hundred thousands of dollars. I understand crypto holders are suspicious and may prefer to do it by themselves, but there are regulated entities who now offer the services. Besides, being a crypto millionaire is not a guarantee you will get institutional daily withdrawal limits at exchange. You might, but it will take you another round of KYC with them, and surprisingly this round might be even more aggressive that the ones at Private banks since exchange have gone under intense scrutiny by regulators lately.
The fees for cashing out through a regulated financial intermediary to help you with your cash out should be around 1-2% flat on the nominal, not more. And for this price you should get the full package: execution/monitoring of the trades AND onboarding in a private bank. If you are asked more, you are being abused.
Of course, you also have the option to do it yourself. It is a way more tedious and risky process. Compliance with the exchange, compliance with the private bank, trading BTC/fiat, monitoring the transfers…You will save some money but it will take you some time and stress. Further, if you approach a private bank directly, it will trigger a series of red flag to the banks. As I said in my previous post, they call a direct approach a “walk-in”. They will be more suspicious than if you were introduced by someone and won’t hesitate to show you high fees and load your portfolio with in-house products that earn more money to the banks than to you. Remember also most banks still do not understand crypto so you will have a lot of explanations to provide and you will have to start form scratch with them!
The paradox of crypto millionaires Most of my clients who made their wealth through crypto all took massive amount of risks to end up where they are. However, most of them want their bank account to be managed with a low volatility fixed income capital preservation risk profile. This is a paradox I have a hard time to explain and I think it is mainly due to the fact that most are distrustful towards banks and financial markets in general. Many clients who have sold their crypto also have a cash-out blues in the first few months. This is a classic situation. The emotions involved in hodling for so long, the relief that everything has eventually gone well, the life-changing dynamics, the difficulties to find a new motivation in life…All these elements may trigger a post cash-out depression. It is another paradox of the crypto rich who has every card in his hand to be happy, but often feel a bit sad and lonely. Sometimes, even though it’s not my job, I had to do some psychological support. A lot of clients have also become my friends, because we have the same age and went through the same “ordeal”. First world problem I know… Remember, cashing out is not the end. It’s actually the beginning. Don’t look back, don’t regret. Cash out partially, because it does not make sense to cash out in full, regret it and want back in. relax.
The race to cash out crypto billionaire and the concept of late exiter. The Winklevoss brothers are obviously the first of a series. There will be crypto billionaires. Many of them. At a certain level you can have a whole family office working for you to manage your assets and take care of your needs . However, let me tell you it’s is not because you made it so big that you should think you are a genius and know everything better than anyone. You should hire professionals to help you. Managing assets require some education around the investment vehicles and risk management strategies. Sorry guys but with all the respect I have for wallstreebet, AMD and YOLO stock picking, some discipline is necessary. The investors who have made money through crypto are generally early adopters. However I have started to see another profile popping up. They are not early adopters. They are late exiters. It is another way but just as efficient. Last week I met the first crypto millionaire I know who first bough bitcoin over 1000$. 55k invested at the beginning of this year. Late adopter & late exiter is a route that can lead to the million.
Last remarks. I know banks, bankers, and FIAT currencies are so last century. I know some of you despise them and would like to have them burn to the ground. With compliance officers taking over the business, I would like to start the fire myself sometimes. I hope this extensive guide has helped some of you. I am around if you need more details. I love my job despite all my frustration towards the banking industry because it makes me meet interesting people on a daily basis. I am a crypto enthusiast myself, and I do think this tech is here to stay and will change the world. Banks will have to adapt big time. Things have started to change already; they understand the threat is real. I can feel the generational gap in Geneva, with all these old bankers who don’t get what’s going on. They glaze at the bitcoin chart on CNBC in disbelief and they start to get it. This bitcoin thing is not a joke. Deep inside, as an early adopter who also intends to be a late exiter, as a libertarian myself, it makes me smile with satisfaction.
Cheers. @swisspb on telegram
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Summary of BTCC / Bobby Lee AMA on Segwit2x on /r/BitcoinMarkets

I figured this needs to be saved and remembered after 2x (hopefully) fails. I was honestly shocked to see Bobby as such a hardline 2x'er, given how friendly his brother (Charlie Lee) is towards BTC and this community. Zero doubt, zero attempt to be neutral or even acknowledge that there are any significant groups that disagree with you. He's living in an alternate reality where B2X obviously is Bitcoin. I'm so happy that I've never given any money to BTCC.
Here are some selected quotes from the AMA (emphasis mine, for the most outrageous quotes). Full AMA here
Why are you continuing to signal for Segwit2X when it was originally concieved to appease jihan/roger blocking segwit activation, both of whom are now shilling bcrash as the real bitcoin & on top of this Segwit2x has no developer support, is already way behind bitcoin core & the only active main dev is Garzik who is doing his own altcoin ico, plus no user community support.
(… a couple more paragraphs)

Thank you for your feedback.

there are several parties involved in bitcoin (code developers, miners, exchanges/companies).
(1) do you think the power between those parties is fairly distributed?
(2) do you think any of parties has too much power and should be reduced in power?

One of the reasons I like bitcoin is precisely because of this balance of powers: no one group has absolute power.
There’s also one more group: end-users.
There is no exact measurement on what percentage of powers each group has; it’s not a mathematical certainty.
The upcoming bitcoin upgrade (NYA, Segwit2x) is a good test to see if the bitcoin community can move forward when only a subset of all the groups decide to move on to an upgrade of bitcoin.
It’s unfortunate that this upgrade is not fully supported by all groups.

What is your plan is the NYA fork is less valuable than bitcoin?

If the bitcoins on the upgraded bitcoin blockchain (SegWit2x) become less valuable than altcoins, then that’s the market deciding that bitcoin is no longer number one, and an altcoin has taken over the top spot.
I don’t expect that to happen, and I hope that that does not happen. On the other hand, if it happens, then I will accept that result.
However, I will not just rename the most expensive altcoin to “bitcoin” just because it has the highest market value.

Would you like to see replay protection added to the NYA fork chain?

Replay protection is not needed for change-of-consensus upgrades to the bitcoin network. That’s been the consistent practice over the past nine years.
The upcoming mid-November hard fork is a planned upgrade of the bitcoin network, with strong support from miners and users.
If a minority chain hard-forks with different consensus rules, then replay protection would be advised.
This happened with Bitcoin Cash in August, and it may happen again if Bitcoin Core decides to hard fork the Bitcoin Core Legacy (BCL) chain to a new POW algorithm.

Will you mine both chains if there is market demand making it profitable? Or only the so-called upgraded version of Bitcoin? I'm asking a very straightforward question. Please just give whatever information you can. Thanks!

Yes, we will support more than one chain if there’s enough user demand and if doing so makes economic sense.
BTCC supports altcoin mining; earlier this year, we started mining litecoins, and we will start mining bitcoin cash soon.
In the future, if the Bitcoin Core Legacy (BCL) chain survives, we will consider providing BTCC Pool support for that based on market demand.

Will you honour this clear commitment you gave to your customers:
Consequently, we insist that the Bitcoin Unlimited community (or any other consensus breaking implementation) build in strong two-way replay protection.

Yes, I stand by that. At the time, Bitcoin Unlimited was expected to have a minority of hashing power, so we considered its different implementation of bitcoin as a “fork” off the main bitcoin blockchain. I advised them to build in strong two-way replay protection.
This time, in mid-November, bitcoin is expected to upgrade its consensus rules, just as it has done so many times over the past nine years. The upcoming Segwit2x feature is an upgrade to Bitcoin, and yes, there is a change in consensus rules this time. Per bitcoin rules, bitcoin will continue to be the chain that has the most accumulated hashing power and produces the longest valid blockchain.

Will you mine both BTC and S2X? Do you think miners signaling NYA can mine both and keep their word?

We will mine BTC, and once bitcoin is upgraded in November, we will continue to mine that.

why you continue to support segwit2x when is clear that is DOA(dead on arrival) and has no future?

Thank you for sharing your opinion about SegWit2x. I hope you’re wrong, of course :-); time will tell.

Do you think that a change (such as 2x) that does not have user and developer support being activated on the network degrades the incorruptibility of bitcoin? If not, then do you think users and developers should have any say in what changed are to be made?

The SegWit2x upgrade to bitcoin in mid-November does have user and developer support; maybe you just don't like those users and developers :-). Users and developers will always have a say about what changes are made to bitcoin; that’s why I like bitcoin.
However, no one in this world has absolute power to force everyone else in the world to do something. That’s my philosophy about life and about bitcoin.

Hi Bobby, thanks for taking the time to do this AMA. Arguably the subject that preoccupied us the most is the upcoming hard fork.
TL;DR: here are my questions, I've repeated them at the end of my post.
Do you still intend to stick by the New York Agreement and proceed with the fork? Will you mine it even if it is much less profitable than the original chain? If yes, for how long? What will you do is some miners leave your pool to mine with a pool that supports the original chain, like F2Pool or Slush Pool? Or will you do as ViaBTC said it will do, i.e. technically support both chains and let miners mine on the chain they chose?
So far, we have several indications of the community's level of support for the fork: (… several more paragraphs …)

Yes, we are committed to the NYA, and will proceed with the bitcoin network upgrade in mid-November. Thank you for your feedback and sharing your opinion.

SegWit2x chain split token is trading at 0.15 BTC. A majority of nodes on the network are running Core 0.15+ which blocks 2X. Bitcoin Cash represents a violation of NYA that gives big blockers what they wanted.
Given these facts, what on earth is motivating you to continue forward with this attack on Bitcoin?
Please, do your part to stop B2X so bitcoin can thrive. There is no honour in keeping your word just for the sake of keeping your word. Do what is right, Bobby.

Thank you for your feedback; your opinion is noted. In my mind, bitcoin is resistant to attacks. If your version of bitcoin is easily attacked, then I suggest for you to look into other choices.

Seems like you don't want to answer questions about Segwit2X. I am wondering what your motives are for causing all this uncertainty by continuing to support a coin with only one developer who is now trying to market a scam ALT coin.

I have answered questions about Segwit2x; I don’t believe I’m stonewalling or avoiding questions here. Please read my other responses about why I support NYA and the Segwit2x upgrade to bitcoin.
To me, it’s clear that the Segwit2x upgrade planned for mid-November is going to happen because a majority of bitcoin’s hashing power has committed to it.
The sense of uncertainty you have may stem from uncertainty about whether the legacy non-upgraded bitcoin blockchain will have sufficient hashpower to survive, and whether it will need an emergency hard fork to change its POW in order to survive long term. To me, that’s the question that needs to be clarified.
There are many developers supporting the SegWit2x upgrade, certainly more than just one person.

Do you personally think either 2x or Core will win, or will they both survive?

I believe that bitcoin will get upgraded in November, in accordance with the SegWit2x proposal. If the hashing power continues to support a legacy chain in a feasible manner, then the legacy chain would survive. “Winning” is a matter of perspective. It’s not necessary to judge what other people like or dislike.

Whats your outlook on the B2x vs Bitcoin Core debacle? What position has your company taken in terms of having segwit + 2MB HF(Segwit2x) or just Segwit(and elaborate on your reasoning for the side that your company is taking)?
What is your outlook on Litecoin, Vertcoin, Bitcoin Cash and Dogecoin?
Will your exchange BTCC open again when China decides to regulate all exchanges?
Any Job positions open for devs? :)
Thank you for taking your time to do this AMA Bobby!

Let me call it the “Bitcoin” vs “Bitcoin Core” difference of opinion. Would that work for you? :-)
I like bitcoin because it is decentralized, censorship-resistant, and continues to evolve and improve over time. I am a supporter of NYA because I think bitcoin should continue to scale on-chain and through second-layer solutions.
If China changes its regulatory stance on bitcoin exchanges, we will certainly reconsider our business direction, and re-examine how best to address the China market.
For now, we will focus on our non-China businesses, including our popular BTC, LTC, ETH, and BCC wallet app Mobi ( You can find out about our other international businesses by visiting:
And yes, we are hiring devs, especially really strong and talented ones! Please apply by sending us your resume at [email protected].

What are your thoughts on Bitcoin Cash with its upcoming hard fork?

I like the proposal to change the difficulty adjustment algorithm for Bitcoin Cash. I’m supportive of it and hope the upgrade/hard fork succeeds.
submitted by psionides to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Curious if I am able to recover my old wallet

Not sure if this is ok to post or the best area or what... I used to mine coins several years ago and I had a wallet and mined on Slush's pool. I acquired maybe 1 coin and spent .75 of it (on like random $50 amazon cards.. ughhhh) and then forgot all about it...
I was going through some old folders on my backup drives and stuff not too long ago and with all the fervor going on, thought to look up my old BTC folders and found that I still had some of the bitcoin and mining folders laying around...
I used CG miner and I believe the default BTC wallet... I remember I used that wallet to backup the wallet to a .dat file, and when I looked at my account on Slush's pool, it showed me the wallet address I sent stuff to, and it said that I still have a balance of .25 BTC in it....
Is there any way to recover this? I installed the BTC wallet and I am running it to have it catch up to everything, but I don't see any place to import a backup file, just export... I seem to still have my wallet.dat and I am sure I could guess any password I would have put on it...
I am under the assumption that all is lost, but until today I had not bothered to log into my old pool and check my history and what wallet stuff was sent to, so it renewed my interest...
If recoverable, what is the best next step?
Any help would be really great. Please be gentile, I am pretty nubs with this stuff even after lurking on here for the past couple months...
submitted by kr1mson to CryptoCurrency [link] [comments]

BIP39 Words list

Nothing special, just a copy of the current list (for the future) of what can be found at
submitted by lowcarbjc to btc [link] [comments]

02-06 23:13 - 'Question for the Bitcoin Community - As part of my college course I am currently enrolled in a module much of which is centered around the history of bitcoin . I am completely new to the world Bitcoin and still finding m...' by /u/IrishChief2018 removed from /r/Bitcoin within 19-29min

Question for the Bitcoin Community - As part of my college course I am currently enrolled in a module much of which is centered around the history of bitcoin . I am completely new to the world Bitcoin and still finding my feat in terms of understanding everything so please go easy on my below post in terms of things that may be wrong or dont fit with your views on bitcoin . As part of the course we are currently looking at the difference between bitcoin and bitcoin cash - if you've a few minutes read the below and let me know whats right and wrong and what else I need to know about the split in the community in terms of parties working in both communities , issues and solutions to both parties ideas.
I appreciate any feedback you could give.
Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash August 2017 we saw the creation of a hard fork from Bitcoin’s original blockchain ledger. The fork was created as a result of a debate that caused a split into the bitcoin community. The debate was centered around the issue of scalability in the bitcoin blockchain . The following outlines below what I believe to be the arguments presented by both users of Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash on how best to solve the scalability issue . Open to any corrections of details people may have on either sides arguments .
The Issue of Scalability.
Under satoshis original whitepaper for Bitcoin we know that individual’s transactions are grouped together to form blocks. Each block has its own blockhash made up of four key components 1) The Hash of the previous block 2) A time stamp of the new block 3) The merkle tree root hash which is the method by which transaction are bundled together from the transaction slush pool with the first transaction hash in the bunch being the coinbase of that bundle . 4) Nonce – This is the puzzle minors need to solve in order to complete the block . To solve the puzzle requires brut computing force so minors must expend computer processing power to find the value randomly that satisfies the puzzle. Upon finding the value the blocks hash is then complete and at this point the block is added to the blockchain .
When a block is added to the blockchain a miner ie the person whos cpu solved the nonce to create the block is rewarded in two ways – 1stly with the issue of newly minted bitcoin and 2ndly with all the transaction fees that people wishing to send bitcoin transactions to attach to their transactions .
The issue with scalability surrounding the blockchain prior to August 2017 was that each block could had a maximum blocksize of 1MB which allowed for roughly 250,000 transaction per day to be processed . The issue was that as more and more people began to use the Bitcoin network it began to run slower as users who were unwilling to pay higher fees had to wait longer for their transactions to be added from the slush to a block and confirmed . How to solve this issue of scalability in the blockchain is what ultimately lead to the forking of the blockchain in August 2017 and the creation of Bitcoin Cash .
Bitcoins solution to scalability – Bitcoins solution to its scalability issue include the creation of both Segregated Witness ( Segwit ) and lightning protocols. Segwit was introduced to increase the blockchain blocksize from 1mb to a maximum of 4mb with the current protocol allowing for blocks to be 2mbs in size . Segwit also allowed for the creation of layered networks on the bitcoin protocol that will ultimately lead into the adoption of the lightning network .
The lightening network is a way in which payments can be chained together outside of the blockchain. It works by allowing participants to transactions interact only twice with the blockchain ledger , once to open and once to close a set of transaction . In-between the opening and closing participants enforce digital IOUs against one another with either party having the option to end the current transaction string of IOUs and cash out for the balancing amount .
Bitcoin Cash’s Solution to scalability . Bitcoin Cash creators changed bitcoins protocol such that the block size was increased from 1Mb to 8MB thus allowing for more transactions to be confirmed in each block helping the network to run quicker .
If you owned Bitcoin prior to August 1st 2017 you also own Bitcoin Cash ( I Think) . Because the chains forked I think so do the public and private key address in the underlying system which means if you sign into a wallet that supports bitcoin cash you’ll find some which at the time I wrote this was roughly 952 USD per coin . Is this correct?
Thanks for all your feedback.
Context Link
Go1dfish undelete link
unreddit undelete link
Author: IrishChief2018
submitted by removalbot to removalbot [link] [comments]

[Informational] [CC0] Maslow's Hierarchy of Coins

Hierarchical Deterministic Wallets

Bitcoin Wallets generate and store the private keys that control a user's funds. These keys are simply random numbers, chosen by the wallet from a range of numbers so vast that it is essentially impossible for there to be a collision with another wallet doing the same thing. Deterministic wallets, also known as HD wallets help to simplify backing up and restoring wallets by using a random seed number to deterministically generate all of a wallet's private keys.

Private Key Backups

Whenever a Bitcoin user receives funds, they need a new private key. This means that the set of numbers that are important to store and back up is increasing indefinitely. In the original Bitcoin wallet, this required refreshing a back-up with a new one every time a user received funds.
Over time, Bitcoin grew more valuable and this burden of security grew more tiresome and costly. To address the issue Satoshi Nakamoto in October of 2010 released Bitcoin version 0.3.14 which contained a key pool feature. This feature automatically pre-generated a set of keys, to remain in abeyance for the user's next receipt of funds. This made backing up a much less frequent necessity, only being necessary after key pool exhaustion.
Over the following years, many other methods of improving key backups were tried. A popular concept of a paper wallet arose: printing a private key onto paper to store in a secure location. However this concept fell out of favor as being too complicated, vulnerable to printer information leaks, and encouraging address re-use.

Type 1 Deterministic Wallets

In August of 2011 Mike Caldwell sought to simplify and streamline the process of managing a collection of private keys. He created a Windows application called Bitcoin Address Utility that used a single random pass-phrase to deterministically create private keys from a single seed: essentially choosing one random number and then feeding it into a formula that would always produce more random numbers from the starting one.
This created a much easier way to backup private keys: simply secure the original random seed and restoring becomes a simple exercise of running the seed through the algorithm again.

Type 2 Deterministic Wallets

Mike Caldwell's Type 1 deterministic wallet design was based on a simple scheme that had a significant limitation: to receive funds with a Type 1 wallet required also having access to the private keys that could spend them. In situations such as merchant scripts or exchange wallets, this represented a security issue.
Before Mike Caldwell published his Type 1 wallet, in June of 2011 Greg Maxwell had already outlined a theoretical improvement to the Type 1 scheme, in which the public and private key generation might be separated to improve the security of stored funds. In Greg's outlined Type 2 scheme, a script could use what is called a master public key to generate new addresses, without ever being able to spend those funds.
In February of 2012, Pieter Wuille came up with a formalization and standardized version of this concept, in BIP 32. A surge of wallet development activity followed the deterministic wallet concept. Since the master seed behind the wallet may be represented as a simple series of twelve words, it was widely considered to be the superior method for Bitcoin wallet private key generation.
Alan Reiner was the first to implement a Type 2 seed in Armory Wallet, and helped give feedback to the BIP 32 formalization. Since then, every major wallet has moved to support the feature.

BIP 44 Deterministic Wallets

After BIP 32, development of Type 2 deterministic wallets progressed to a state where additional features and standardization was sought to be defined. In April of 2014 Marek Palatinus, also known as Slush, and Pavol Rusnak, Slush's employee at his company SatoshiLabs, sought to advance the state of deterministic wallets by adapting advancements in their own Type 2 hardware wallet Trezor into a standard they authored in BIP 44.
Features promoted by the BIP 44 standard included a mechanism for internal pass-phrase protected accounts inside of a wallet seed, a standard for using the wallet seed across multiple chains, such as for Bitcoin Testnet, and an increased standardization of gap limits and change address separation.

Deterministic Wallet Caveats

Despite the huge improvement in the state of Bitcoin technology that HD wallets represent, there are some outstanding issues and drawbacks or gotchas that may present difficulties.
Deterministic wallets generally present users with a dictionary derived random pass-phrase that actually represents a master seed number in a form that is easier for humans to deal with. But this ease-of-use has sometimes tempted developers into allowing users to set their own pass-phrase, a very bad idea. Users are extremely bad at choosing a properly random pass-phrase, and this behavior can lead to loss of funds. For this reason, all well-maintained wallets have ceased the practice of encouraging users to invent their own pass-phrases.
Another issue that sometimes confronts users in unexpected ways is that the seeds created by deterministic wallets should not be shared between wallets from different software projects. The reason for this is that the standard for deterministic wallets is generally not actually adopted by all wallets, or there are still areas left unspecified. Due to these small differences, seeds may superficially appear to be share-able between wallets, but in actuality leave some coins difficult to access from the non-originating wallet. To switch between deterministic wallets, the best practice recommendation is to initiate fund transfers on the Blockchain.
From a security and privacy perspective, under normal circumstances a deterministic wallet is just as good as a wallet in which random keys are individually generated. However use of the public master key can prove the exception to that rule. Although it is called a public master key, for privacy reasons it should not be shared publicly, as it can link all wallet addresses together. Another important reason it should not be shared is that if a single private key derived from the private seed is leaked and the public master key is also known, all the other private keys may be derived as well. This type of theft is quite uncommon, but for these reasons it is strongly recommended that the master public key still be treated as guarded information.
One practice that must differ between using an individually generated wallet and a deterministic wallet is the practice of creating addresses that are never used. HD wallets have a key implementation detail in the way that they calculate wallet balances: they go through their deterministic algorithm sequentially to determine if each private key has been used, stopping when no further activity is detected. This is a critical optimization, an HD wallet cannot scan endlessly or know automatically all of its balance information without individual queries. To provide a safety margin, HD wallets use something called a gap limit, which represents the number of keys checked that have no activity before the balance query will cease its sequential checking. This gap limit can means that creating many addresses that are never used is a bad practice and can lead to users mistakenly believing their funds have been lost, if more unused addresses are created beyond the gap limit safety margin.
A powerful feature of BIP 44 HD wallets is the internal pass phrase account system. This feature addresses a common security concern amongst people who worry about keeping their seed backups secure from theft: it adds an internal password to the stored seed. The feature also powers another use-case, a scenario in which the owner is confronted with the seed and forced to give access to it. As a precautionary measure, the owner may create a red-herring pass phrase and a real pass-phrase, pretending that the red-herring phrase contains the entirety of the funds when forced to open the wallet under duress. But with this power also comes risk deriving from any situation where users choose pass phrases to remember. Human generated pass phrases should generally be considered weak: a brute-force attack can most often bypass them. And memorized pass phrases can be easily forgotten, leading to an annoying situation where funds are temporarily inaccessible, or if a truly strong pass-phrase has been chosen, permanently lost.
submitted by pb1x to writingforbitcoin [link] [comments]

Should I have gotten a faucet payout yet? (re: yesterday's links)

Hi all,
I ran through all the faucet links that were posted yesterday. Now, about 16 hours later, my wallet balance in qt-bitcoin remains unchanged. Did I do something wrong? How long should it normally take for payments to show up?
I've never received any bitcoins before (I'm a noob), and I'm especially worried because I was coming up on my first payout from Slush's Pool, and I'm concerned I might have set up my wallet wrong. Any tips?
The address shown in the "Receive Coins" tab is
That's my wallet address, correct?
Any help/assurance that my set-up is correct is appreciated.
submitted by ThebocaJ to BitcoinMining [link] [comments]

Bitcoin mining pool - Slushpool worker tutorial - YouTube Coinbase - How to Find your Bitcoin wallet address - YouTube How to choose a Bitcoin mining pool - YouTube Bitcoin Miner  the fast and stable 50Miner  by 50 BTC Pool  2013 Slushpool bitcoin mining pool - worker setup tutorial ...

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Bitcoin mining pool - Slushpool worker tutorial - YouTube

If you want to someone to send you money to your Bitcoin account, Give them this address. you may donate to our network via Bitcoin as well :) Bitcoin addres... Let your computer earn you money with Bitcoin Miner on slushpool. This slushpool mining pool tutorial will demonstrate how to setup your bitcoin miner. #Bitc... Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. setup a bitcoin mine and join a pool.. ... your miner and then you have to select server or pool ,,,i select here slush's pool ... after that it ask you for username and password for username and ... Slushpool is the oldest bitcoin mining pool, and the first known to be publicly available. This tutorial will demonstrate worker setup on slushpool mining pool.